The following is two posts of a protracted discussion where the fate of Judas was being discussed, whether his fate was "annihilation" or not. A JW poster had argued that the word Greek word APOLLUMI means "destroy" or "destroyed utterly" and this is but one indication that the 'wicked,' as Judas was, will be 'annihilated," will cease to exist. At one particular point in jumps Robert V. Frazier with an objection and some kind of answer to something the JW poster had remarked. The following is what Frazier had written and the reply that was given him to which he did not respond to, either to make a rebutal or accepting his error in his first post.
Originally by JW poster:
Well, the Greek words do mean "destroy"
and..well, "destroy" does mean to "destroy."
Do you know of anything than has been "destoyed" and
"destroyed utterly" but keeps remaining what it was?
Robert V. Frazier's reply:
As a matter of fact, yes, I do. Wine and wineskins, in Mark 2:22:
"And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does,
the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the
wineskins will be ruined. No, he pours new wine into new
wineskins." Yes, you guessed it: the word translated "ruined"
above is apolumi, in the form apolountai to be
precise. Not a single atom of either the wine or the wineskin
would cease to exist in the example Jesus gives here.
Both would be rendered unfit for their intended purposes, however; the wineskin having a big rip in it is no longer able to hold liquids, and the wine being dumped on the dirt is no longer drinkable.
But the one is still a wineskin, and the other is still wine. Neither ceased to exist. Under normal conditions, matter is never created nor destroyed, only changed. A ripped wineskin will not cause itself or its contents to be converted to energy.
There is not a single instance in the Bible of this word ever meaning "annihilate". There are plenty of examples of it referring to living people becoming dead people. Also a lot of examples of various shades of meaning of "lost". If "annihilate" is even in the semantic range of apolumi, which is debatable, it is not ever used with that meaning in the Bible.
Here are all of the verses using the word, with Thayer's lexicon entry:
JW poster's rebutal:
Who said anything about a person being "destroyed" in
that their atoms that make up their physical body would no longer
exist? I did not so who are you arguing with? If a person is
"destroyed" that means the person no longer
exists, not that the atoms that made up the phyiscal body do not!
>Both would be rendered unfit for their
intended purposes, however; the wineskin having a big rip in it
is no longer able to hold
>liquids, and the wine being dumped on the dirt is no longer drinkable.
And the person, the "soul," whose
body has been destroyed is no longer able to keep the spirit, the
life force that keeps the person alive(remember that a soul= body
+ spirit, you take away the body..no soul, no person...you take
away their spirit...again, no soul, no person), for the body has
been "destroyed" and hence has been "rendered
unfit for (its) intended purpose"...so the person
does not exist even though the atoms which comprised the body may
well do..and in turn may well become part of another living thing..like
>But the one is still a wineskin, and the
other is still wine. Neither ceased to exist. Under normal
conditions, matter is never created >nor destroyed, only
changed. A ripped wineskin will not cause itself or its contents
to be converted to energy.
And no one would use that "wineskin" as
a "wineskin" again and the wine that would have
spilt onto the "dirt" will soon degrade and the atoms
it was comprised of will no longer be combined into what we call
"wine, the wine would have ceased to exist, not its
atoms Robert, as would the wineskin if not mended, it
would evenually cease to exist as a wineskin. All this is
analogous to a person who, being destroyed, would also have no
resurrection, will not be "mended," so as not to be
"a person" ever again. So, can you see now that though
in both, the wineskin's and the wine's atoms still exist and have
not been converted into "energy" or "destroyed,"
both will cease to exist as such? So, once again you
have not said anything that refutes the fact that the bible says
that the fate of the wicked is "destruction" in the
sense it means it and you have used a completely bogus argument
as no one, including me, has said anything about atoms turning
into energy or ceasing to exist!
And under "normal conditions" Robert, tell me what you would do with a "wineskin" that has a rip in it or the wine that has been split onto the ground? You would throw away the "wineskin" and leave the wine to degrade where it fell. Now Robert, tell me what would happen to both? Would they both degrade over time so that they would completely disintegrate and eventually they could not either be said to be a wineskin nor the wine they once were? Is that not correct. Would they not have been destoyed..and as you would not be able to re-combine those atoms that made up either the wineskin or the wine they would have ceased to exist..yep, I would bet my bottom dollar that you know what this means to your use of Jesus illustration of the wineskins..or at least I hope you and JR does!
>There is not a single instance in the Bible
of this word ever
The English word "destroy" is the
given lexical meaning for the word APOLLUMI and if one looks at
any good English dictionary you will find that a synonym for
"destroy" is...yep, you guessed it.."annihilate".
>There are plenty of examples of it
referring to living people becoming dead people. Also a lot of
examples of various shades of >meaning of "lost". If
"annihilate" is even in the semantic range of apolumi,
which is debatable, it is not ever used with that >meaning in
Simply an assertion backed up with no evidence
whatsoever. The fact is that the word is used of things that have
been destroyed completely and this word is used by the bible
writers to refer to the wicked's fate, along with "gehenna"
and "fire". All these mean and depict that the person
so destroyed will cease to exist and is hence...destroyed utterly
and if they do not recieve a resurrection they would have been
>Here are all of the verses using the word,
>lexicon entry: http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/6/1138127960-2142.html
Good, one should be able to see that for the wicked then destruction is their fate....yes, they will be annihilated having neither life(of any kind) nor the hope of ever living again. Next time Robert, though I doubt there will be, why not actually deal what I have written rather than what you think I did and take your readers down the garden path blissfully unaware that you are doing so? Though I must admit it is funny watching you walk down the garden path while I sit on the porch drinking....wine! Cheers Robert.
More pages of interest