The following is yet another exchange between a JW poster and Robert V. Frazier this time on the subject of whether or not Jesus actually, literally is "beside" or "alongside" that of God, the Father. This involved what function of the Greek preposition PARA plus dative, occuring twice, at John 17.5 has(there are several definite uses and see how the New World Translation renders John 17.5 here and compare with Kingdom Interlinear Translation). One will see that Frazier was not willing to admit that this preposition literally means "alongside" and when asked as to what function it is being employed here by John he makes up a novel meaning for it!
Originally Posted by jj3 What then did Stephen actually see at Acts 7.55. |
Frazier: A vision, of course. Even if Heaven
were a physical location, such as another planet (as some of the
ditzier televangelists have said), do you really think that
Stephen could see individual people in such a location, from
Earth, without even a telescope?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jj3 How were the "sons of God" able to "take their station before Jehovah" and "even Satan proceeded to enter right among them"(Job 1.6)? |
Frazier: How are
you able to imagine any of that is talking about physical space
and location? You are entering right among all of us on this
forum. Are we all located in one physical room, that you entered
by walking through a door? Is God less able to communicate than
the internet is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jj3 And of course, what did Jesus mean (according to John) at John 17.5 when he requested the Father that he "glorify PARA SEAUTW(the father)"? How does PARA function here? |
Frazier: It means,
"just as you are glorified, to the same degree, for the same
reasons". It does not mean, "glorified in the same
location as you are glorified".
Quote:
Originally Posted by jj3 Have you read the reason why I said here a "literal position"? I said this because of what has expired on the Christadelphian board where I have discussed John 17.5 with two Christadelphians. |
Frazier: Nope, but
whatever your reasons were, the conclusion is wrong. God has no
literal position, so whatever your reasons, whatever your train
of thought, it has led you to a false conclusion. I'll leave it
to you to figure out where your train of thought went off the
rails. Frankly, I'm not all that interested.
This ended Frazier's response. The following is the JW reply to his which Frazier never did respond back with any attempted rebutal. Which is not surprising when one reads on!
Quote:
What then did Stephen actualy
see at Acts 7.55. |
I did not ask if it was a "vision" or not but what did
he actually see, whether it was in a vison or not is
neither here nor there. Now, care to answer my question now? Of
course, I can answer it for you. Stephen 'saw' "Jesus
standing at God's right hand," and Stephen said out loud:
"Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man
standing at God's right hand." This would be in accord with
what Jesus requested of the Father at John 17.5. No one has
denied that this means having authority also but this does not
mean that Jesus, the "Son of man," is also not PARA God
the Father in a spatial sense also and indeed this is what I have
argued for in the thread that discusses John 17.5 over on the
christadelphian board but you have not a clue what transpired
there because of a lack of "interest" on your part as
you admit!
Quote:
How were the "sons of
God" able to "take their station before Jehovah"
and "even Satan proceeded to enter right among them"(Job
1.6)? |
Do you really think that the "sons of God" and even
"Satan" did not come close in a spatial sense, in any
way spirits can in heaven, to that of God in that scene of Job.1.6?
I am sure they could communicate in many different ways but thats
begging the question whether they actually do 'meet' up in a
personal way from time to time. Even we do who use the interent
to communicate do so why are you thinking that the angels and God
do not or cannot do likewise? You are in effect making little
argument against that there in Job 1.6 the angels did appear
before the very person of God in whatever way spirits do and can.
Note that it was also at a particular time, "there came a
day." When we read that they "came to present
themselves before Yahweh" the verb signifies "the
appearence of courtiers before their king in order to make their
reports and recieve instructions."- Word Biblical
Commentary, Job 1-20, D.J.A.Clines.
Quote:
And of course, what did Jesus
mean (according to John) at John 17.5 when he requested
the Father that he "glorify PARA SEAUTW(the Father)"?
How does PARA function here? |
You did not answer my question to you how PARA plus dative
functions here but just told me what the scripture means. However,
what you did write bears little resemblance to what Jesus
actually said and the Greek John used! What does BAGD say on this?
It cites John 17.5 in a section where PARA has the function of
"spatial proximity" does it not? Tasker, in his
commentary in the Tyndale series, says that "The Greek idiom
"PARA SEAUTW" is better represented by 'in thine own
presence'(RSV) or 'at thy side'(knox)." Wallace say that
PARA plus dative is "In general, the dative uses suggest proximity
or nearness" and then gives four specific uses "a.
Spatial: near, beside b. Sphere: in the sight of,
before(someone) c. Association: with(someone/something)
and d. Virtually equivalent to simple dative." Now, I do not
see anything here which is the equivalent of your "to the
same degree, for the same reasons"! Are you not making
things up now? Please provide a grammatical work that support
your thinking that PARA plus dative has this meaning here, twice
mind, at John 17.5. Also, please provide examples from the GNT
that has PARA plus dative with the function you give us above.
Thankyou.
Quote:
Have you read the reason why
I said here a "literal position"? I said this
because of what has expired on the Christadelphian board
where I have discussed John 17.5 with two
Christadelphians. |
Then if you do not wish to go over to the christadelphian board
because you are "not interested" I suggest that it
would have been better for you to keep your "thoughts"
to yourself. But, whatever you wish. However, unless you get
"interested" enough to go over there you will remain in
your ignorance why I used the phrase "literal position"
as I did! It is my belief that the scriptures do in fact show
that God has his own particular place in the heavens that the
other spirits could go and be in the very spiritual presence of
God.(Compare Job.1.6, John 16.28, Heb.9.24) and this is exactly
what Jesus requested of the Father in prayer at John 17.5.
End.
The Translator's New Testament reads at John 17.5: "Now glorify me at you side Father , with the glory which I had there before the world existed."-italics ours.
The New Testament in Modern Speech by R.F.Weymouth : "And now Father, do Thou glorify me in Thine own presence, with the glory that I had in Thy presence before the world existed."- italics ours
The Twentieth Century New Tesament: " and now do honour me, Father, at thy own side, with the honour which I had at thy side before the world began."-italics ours
New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures: "So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was." -italics ours
The Kingdom Interlinear of the Christian Greek Sciptures(WTB&TS): "and now glorify me you Father beside to-yourself(PARA SEAUTW)to-the glory which I-was-having before of-the the world to-be beside you(PARA SOI)."-italics and Greek words in brackets ours
From this we can see that Jesus requested that he be "alongside" the Father which was his 'location' in heaven prior to his becoming a man, "before the world existed." This shows he existed as a seperate and distinct being from the Father "before the world existed" and had and has recieved from the Father a prime location in the spiritual heaven, and that is right beside the Father, God.